carbon top section

[sailor327]

I just got my summer issue of "The Laser Sailor" and i am amazed at the fact that the Carbon top section might be coming out for the radial this fall or winter. its also is great that it might be so cheap at under 300$ compared to the tiny Carbon tiller which is 180$.

[49208]

Amazing except for the fact that if you want to sail either a 4.7 or full rig as well, you still need the alum top section too....

[computeroman2]

That sounds great.....I don't know what the advantages are, could you either tell me or post some of the article or something?

I know carbon fibre is strong and light, that's about it.

Why do you still need a different one for standard and 4.7? wouldn't they at least make it compatible?

[Merrily]

Originally Posted by computeroman2

That sounds great.....I don't know what the advantages are, could you either tell me or post some of the article or something?

I know carbon fibre is strong and light, that's about it.

Why do you still need a different one for standard and 4.7? wouldn't they at least make it compatible?

The goal for making a the carbon top section for the radial, as I understand it, is to make the radial easier to sail for lighter women in the Olympic. It will not be legal to use for the 4.7 or standard, but for racing and sailing at the local level, I may be tempted to try it.

Merrily

[terraslaser]

i think it would just bend off to much on a fullrig because the bottom section is quite stiff in a full rig where as on a radial it is very bendy.

oh and can some tell for much that is in english pounds?

[SFBayLaser]

It is my understanding that the plan is to introduce the composite spar for use by the Radial and 4.7 but not for the Laser. I **think** the eventual plan is to adopt the composite spar across all rigs (post 2008???). I suppose we will all have more information on this topic after the World Council meeting in Fortaleza at the end of the month (I know that ILCA is planning an article on this topic which will probably appear in the Winter Laser World).

Until then, Ned's article in The Laser Sailor is the best source of information currently available... and if you are not an ILCA-NA member you can still join now and get a copy of this issue to read all about it (and your membership will be valid through the end of 2006) - just go to www.laser.org and sign up online.

Tracy

[Merrily]

Originally Posted by terraslaser

oh and can some tell for much that is in english pounds?

166 pounds. All my conversions come from: http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/conversions.html

Merrily

[Sunray]

Originally Posted by terraslaser

i think it would just bend off to much on a fullrig because the bottom section is quite stiff in a full rig where as on a radial it is very bendy.

oh and can some tell for much that is in english pounds?

I lived in London for a couple of years and I seem to remember that 200 pounds would be the rough equivalent of $300.... The 166 pound answer sounds about right......
Ray

[Merrily]

Originally Posted by Sunray

I lived in London for a couple of years and I seem to remember that 200 pounds would be the rough equivalent of $300.... The 166 pound answer sounds about right......
Ray

The exchange rate changes day by day, and the dollar is weak right now.

Merrily

[torrid]

At 150 lbs., how much benefit would I see from a carbon top section on a Radial? I think it would tend to be of more benefit for lighter sailors.

[Murphs]

yeah, in testing they have found it helps lighter sailors alot more than it helps heavier radial sailors

i think the composite spar is only for the radial for now and will probably be legal soon

[Tom]

Yeh when i had ago of it, it was windy and me being only 68kg at the time found it great. I have heard that it will be legal after the Australian national (december to january this year) so i guess its just all about waiting now :P

[Chuoui]

With the carbon top making it easier for the lighter guys is it going to move the weight range down and kill off the 4.7??

[sailor327]

thats a good question

[peterbye]

Originally Posted by Merrily

166 pounds.

In theory!
In practice I bet it will be £300 here in the UK.

[Mullet Time!]

Carbon top sections suck they shouldnt change it, i would have liked it a while ago but now i can just see that it would change the technique in heavy air so much that it would be not good. If you can't handle the radial in heavy air sail a different boat or hike more

[TheBoathouse]

Originally Posted by Chuoui

With the carbon top making it easier for the lighter guys is it going to move the weight range down and kill off the 4.7??

No I don't think so. The carbon top will make it easier for the 135 pound (61kg) person to compete but the 110 pound (50kg) ex-Opti kid would still struggle with it in any breeze.

[3335]

What I've been wondering is if these top sections are significantly stronger. I've seen 3 or 4 friends break their (aluminum) top sections this year, and I'd hate for that to happen to me! (I tend to be slightly accident prone.) Does anyone know about this mast's breakablilty?

[Sunray]

Well, listen,I STILL have not bought the laser (looking for a complete package---laser, trailer, dolly, e.t.c.) but when I DO buy it, in general I would like NOT to spend even MORE money for an additional top-section. I mean, money is not THAT critical if you want a "competitive rig"---key phrase here---the breakability factor is something to consider also---but I figure that if you are in some relatively serious competitions, then you should think about saving up for this "improvement" (if all the talking-heads really think the extra expense is worth it, that is).

Heck, I have not even been on a sailboat in 20 years, but I am determined to practise hard and get competitive and hopefully move up in the ranks, and I think I would justify the expense if it were 'class-legal' and it would make me competitive.....( which contradicts the statement on top there, but what the heck...this is a forum....

Ray
Miami Beach

[Murphs]

they havent managed to break one while sailing here, one got destroyed in transit last year

but i hear they're broken one in france.

dont forget that these sections have been tested beyond the normal pressure that a laser rig would have on even the windiest days so one break is a hell of a lot better than how many times the alum section would have broken under the same testing

[LarsenCanvas]

I've seen a number of broken top sections mainly from corrusion. I've also see bent ones. So this will not be a problem with carbon fiber. I think it will be worth the expense in the long run.

[ehfaust]

All,
I have just returned from the World Council Meeting in Fortaleza, Brazil. During the meeting, we heard a report from Chip Johns, owner of Vanguard, who has been spearheading the development of the carbon top section.

Within the past few weeks, there was a breakage of one of the test spars being used by a sailor in Europe. According to Chip, this event was a serious setback to the development of the carbon mast, and until the proper testing and evaluation can be completed, plans to release the carbon top section to the market have been put on hold.

Chip and the other builders have spent tens of thousands of dollars in developing this piece of equipment, and they don't want to release a product that may break. They feel badly about it, but they are doing the right thing by doing further research and testing before a potentially inferior product is released to the general sailing public. There is a chance that the spar that broke had a manufacturing defect, but until such time as they can pinpoint the source of the problem no plans to release the carbon mast to the market are being caried out.

As a result of these latest developements, it is very likely that all Radial events in 2006 will be sailed with a standard aluminum top section. This will include, specifically, the 2006 Radial Worlds in California. No plans to roll out the new product are currently in the works, and when such plans come about, they will be executed carefully under well publicized procedures.

That is basically all the information I have about this subject, but I will attempt to address any questions you may have on this forum.

See you on the water,
Eric Faust
ILCA-NA Vice Chairman

[rock steady]

Hi Eric, Welcome to TLF and thanks for posting this update.

[Merrily]

Originally Posted by LarsenCanvas

I've seen a number of broken top sections mainly from corrusion. I've also see bent ones. So this will not be a problem with carbon fiber. I think it will be worth the expense in the long run.

I have a carbon mast on my Europe dinghy. It's very strong, but it does need extra care; i.e. it must be kept covered when not in use. Sunlight degrades it. This shouldn't be much of a problem. Just throw it under the top cover, for example.

Too bad there's a developmental setback. I think sailors here are losing sight of the purpose of the carbon mast, to allow lightweight women to sail the Radial at the international level. If the mast is not ready, it will be a setback to the Laser class in the Olympics. Remember that the Europe dinghy was the Women's single handed dinghy in previous Olympics, and if the Radial can't serve as well as the Europe, it may not last beyond 2008.

Merrily

[Clive Humphris]

I sail a Radial in Victoria, Australia, weigh 67Kg, and wind conditions mean I sail with high vang pressure say about 50% of the time. I sail most weekends in club races, October to April, 2 or 3 significant weekend regattas like Masters and States and a week long summer series. This program would be typical for a reasonably keen racer I believe.

I have found the upper section to be reliable only with the following maintenance programmme:-
1. Regular after race high pressure wash of the collar joint to help minimise salt water corrosion.
2. After a high wind day I normally have to straighten an approx. 50mm tip permanent set to maintain straight.
3. At the end of every season I end for end the spar, enabling an extra year of life.
4. I do, of course, always install the pop rivet on the collar to aft so that the pop rivet is on the compression side of the spar.

I draw the following conclusions from this:-
1. With my usage on high wind days the aluminium in the collar area is taken beyond the yield point stress level. This leads to metal fatigue and limits the life of the spar.
2. The reliability of the spar is adequate for me providing I stick to the above programme.
3. I need to fund a new spar every 2 years.
4. This experience is particular to my usage and the spar materials I happen to have. Because the design would appear to be marginal it would only take small changes in material temper and/or wall thickness and usage to make the life unacceptable for some sailers.

Based on this I would recommend that:-
1. A carbon spar would be a welcome change assuming that the fatigue life is greatly increased and the stiffness characteristics are close to the existing aluminium spar.
2. As long as the carbon spar is no more than double the aluminium price it would justify itself just on the ecomomics of ownership alone.
3. The added advantage is less maintenance mucking around.
4. The stiffness characteristics could be modified at the margin to make the boat more sailable for a slightly lower sailer weight range.

I hope my snapshot view of this problem helps,

Clive Humphris
179407